TT: How long
ago did you write The Dragon Legacy?
NDV: About six years ago. The Dragon Legacy
was known on the net as From Transylvania to Tunbridge Wells
and this was a summary of years of research and reflection. Some
of it appeared in Laurence Gardnerís Genesis of the
Grail Kings and then after I published it on the web,
Laurence based his third book Realm of the Ring Lords
largely on what I had already published.
TT: What were your main sources of information when
compiling the book?
NDV: On the so-called Dragon "path" one is imbued
hereditarily with Dragon capabilities in varying measures. As
one progresses these capabilities wax and wane according to
necessity. One of the main capacities is the Derkesthai
Process, in which information is "channeled" through
the conduit of the Dragon archetype; specifically the
racial consciousness of those of the Dragon blood.
Through this process one may pick up naturally, all sorts of
information relating to varied aspects of the Dragon
Tradition in its many branches and manifestations.
However, this is of no use intellectually and rationally without
informed academic confirmation and corroboration.
To this end, another Dragon capacity is to be able to
obtain after the fact those confirmations required. I
anticipated works before I read them, either through meditation
or through experience on the Dragon Path. In a not
too dissimilar manner Kerkule discovered the "Bezine
I would say that the serious academic backbone of The Dragon
Legacy in terms of corroboration and confirmation, lies in
the work of Dr. David Barker; George Woodcock;
Lysander Spooner; Professor Miranda Green; Pierre
Proudhon; Professors Pierpaoli and Regelson;
David Anderson; The Oxford English Dictionary and
an old associate Mr. C. Murray Hall M.A. (Lecturer in
Barbarian Cultures: Sussex University).
TT: How did you begin research into your family history?
At what point in your life did you become aware of "the Dragon
legacy" in your family? Is it something you grew up with?
NDV: From the age of seven onwards my father told me
about our ancestry, an ancestry steeped in royal blood and most
significantly of all, in what is termed Royal Witchcraft,
which is a major, ancient, draconian, druidic facet
continuing within the later history of the Dragon tradition
and within the Vere family.
My father educated me about our particular origins in the royal
and noble Blackwood family of Lanark, Scotland. This
dynasty sired the most significant practitioner of the Dragon
tradition in his time: Major Thomas Weir of Vere of
Edinburgh, my 11th great grandfather.
As a witch lord and the prince consort to the elven queen of
the Lallan, Thomas performed the ancient Gaelic rites
of the sacred kingship of Epona, and consequently founded
this rite of kingship within my lineage. So I received the
tradition at an early age from my father and he received it from
his father, and so on.
TT: Your formal title is "Prince Nicholas de Vere."
What does this title imply?
NDV: I trace my lineage back in an unbroken bloodline to
the imperial prince Milo de Vere, Count of Anjou in 740
A.D., son of Princess Milouziana of the Scythians. She
was recorded throughout France as being the Elven, Dragon
Princess of the Scottish Picts, and her Grandson, Milo II,
through his fatherís marital alliance with the imperial house
Later in history we picked up numerous other lines of
Merovingian descent and the attitude in the house of
Vere today, both here and in Ireland, reflects that of
the Merovingians themselves where inheritance and blood
descent is concerned.
Concerning my maternal lineage: my mother is descended from the
ancient Collison Jarls of Norfolk, and is the third
cousin of the head of the House of Vere. We are a very
tightly knit family. The head of the House himself is of
Royal Collison descent and this matrilinear Collison
extraction also stems from the ancient House of Vere
and Princess Milouziana of the Scythians. We are Veres
on all sides of the family.
The overall head of the House of Vere today is the
Prince Mhaior. By Papal Investiture and by
inheritance from the House of the royal OíBrien descendants
of King Brian Boru of Tara, the Prince Mhaior is
himself an Archduke - not an insignificant Irish earl, as
some totally ill-informed malcontent once triumphantly
proclaimed in a ridiculous, failed attempt at an exposť of me.
The Head of the House formally addresses me as "the
Dragon Prince" of the House of Vere.
TT: Who are the "Dragons" that you write
about in your book?
NDV: In brief, the recorded Dragon lineage starts
the Anunnaki and
descends through the proto-Scythians, the Sumerians in one
branch and the early Egyptians in another; the Phoenicians, the
Mittani, back to the Scythians again through marital alliance,
along to the "Tuatha de Danaan" and the Fir Bolg; down
through their Arch-Druidic, Priest-Princely families, to the
Royal Picts of Scotland and the high kings of the Horse Lords of
Dal Riada; through to the Elven dynasty of Pendragon and
Avallon del Acqs, and down to a few pure bred families
TT: Were the Dragons originally a separate species
from what we would call "human"?
NDV: Dragon tradition related to all the current
genetic and historical evidence says yes they were. Both
relatively recent and ancient accounts of Dragons
or Elves going back to the Annunaki speak
of them as having clearly distinct physical attributes,
and these attributes are inherited from a species that
scientists now assert preceded the human genetic bottleneck
by about thirty thousand years. These attributes are not human
in the accepted sense. Whether this ancient race was hybridized
with another before history is anybodyís guess, but their
later hybridization to produce the Elven God-Kings
and Ring Lords (the King Tribe), is clearly
recorded in the Cylinder Rolls.
TT: Are these Dragons the same as the "Nephilim"
of the Bible or the "Watchers" of The Book of Enoch?
NDV: The Nephilim and the Watchers are of the Dragon race, yes.
TT: Were the gods of ancient cultures (Greece, India,
Sumeria, etc.) Dragons?
NDV: These pantheons are derived from one another so
again the answer in simplistic terms is yes.
TT: What kind of civilization did the Dragons
reign over? Would you say that it was the same as the Atlantean or antediluvian civilization?
NDV: The Platonic Atlantis theory is
preceded by a much older tradition relating to the "Ogdoad."
The Ogdoad, sacred to Jesus himself, were the eight great Gods
who raked the Sacred Mountain - "Atlantis"
- after the original Flood. This Flood occurred in the
Black Sea and the Sacred Mountain, so inundated, was believed to
be the Pontus Euxine. Apparently the Ogdoad
failed in their attempt to bring fertility back to the Holy
Place and abandoned it for a life wandering the planet. This is
probably why the legend of the Flood spread and can be found in
The Ogdoad turn up in Chinese myth, in
early Egyptian religious texts, and even in much later
Viking legend, where the gods of the Aesir were said
to have abandoned the Sacred Mountain after the Flood.
From the Ogdoad, who were the first Dragon
god-kings of ancient proto-Scythia, we obtain the gods of
the Anunnaki, and those later pantheons that derived
It is not to be doubted that after the Flood the
children of the Anunnaki had established
incredible civilizations in their time, so I suppose you could
say that the cultures of the Sumerians (whose
language, termed "proto-Sumerian", originated in
Transylvania), the Egyptians and even the
early settlers in northern Europe stemmed from and reflect an
antediluvian prototype, a much older pre-Flood "Golden Age"
presided over by the ancient Dragon god-kings and
The mistake would be to put the Atlantean period too far back in time and to locate
Atlantis where Plato did. Scientists have proved
the Biblical Flood to be in the Black Sea and this region
is where most of the Titanic and Olympian sagas, associated with
the Dawn of the Gods, unfold.
TT: Is Dragon blood the true source of divine
right kingship, in your opinion? Are the Dragons the
rightful rulers of the worldís governments?
NDV: Anciently Dragon blood, the blood of the
gods, is the true source of divine right kingship. To say that
Dragons are the rightful rulers of the worldís
governments today might raise some contention. Perhaps it would
be more realistic to suggest that they may well be the rightful
rulers of the worldís governments in the future.
TT: When you refer metaphorically to "the Dragon",
what exactly are you referring to?
NDV: "The Dragon" is a term I use generally to
mean the dragon archetype resting within the Dragon blood
and passed on through the genes. It is the conduit through which
flow the memories of the wisdom and experience of the Dragons
who have gone before. The word "dragon" is derived
from the Greek "edrakon", which is an aorist of
the word "derkesthai", which means "to see
clearly". "The Dragon" therefore is the inherited
Dragon archetype and that archetype is the conduit of clear
sight through which racial knowledge flows. Clear sight also and
principally refers to transcendent consciousness.
TT: What percentage of the worldís populace would you say
possesses this Dragon blood? Is it predominately found in
certain types of people? How can you tell a Dragon from
other types of people?
NDV: Roughly ten percent of Europeans have Dragon
blood, and stem from families whose physical attributes
clearly point to a genetic inheritance over 100,000 years old.
This figure is calculated from research deriving from studies by
Oxford University and matched to historical accounts.
TT: How did the Dragon race begin, and how did
they become a separate race from the rest of humanity?
NDV: They didnít originate from outer space, thatís for
sure. A principal element of the Dragon genome originated
in the vast forests of central Europe, and cut off from other
species, they developed as a distinct race. By the time
of the Anunnaki they had been hybridized to form
the ancestors of the later Elves or Dragon
kings and queens.
TT: Did dragons possess "magical" powers? If so,
do their descendants possess them as well?
NDV: It depends what you mean by "magical." The
greatest magic of all is to be able to naturally still oneís
mind to the point where one sees that "all acts are magical
acts." As a natural course of events stemming from transcendent
perception, certain facilities are within the grasp of
Dragons. These abilities, though they vary, are hereditary.
TT: Your former co-author Laurence Gardner writes
a lot about "starfire"
and the power of pineal secretions, which are portrayed
as being analogous to the Elixir of Life or
Philosopherís Stone, bestowing increased brain capacity,
magical ability, and prolonged life upon he who consumes it.
These are elements that he clearly picked up from your research.
In your writing, you claim that people of "Dragon blood"
are the only ones bio-chemically equipped to produce
these substances in their own bodies at a high enough level to
But Gardner has written much about this
gold", and seems to think that this is a
synthetic substitute for "starfire" which
ordinary people can consume to become Dragons themselves.
Do you know anything about this substance? What is your comment
on Mr. Gardnerís theories?
NDV: Firstly the physical, hormonal elements of Starfire are only one side of the story, and in my book
I clearly state that the whole process contains several other "psycho-somatic"
elements, not least that pertaining to relationship.
As for being able to pop a pill to become a Dragon, this
kind of stupid New Age attitude stems from the ridiculous,
totally indefensible greed-driven free market assertion that
anyone can become anything they choose, and the totally
unfounded PC notion that everyone is equal.
This kind of pathetic liberalism, born as a reaction to the
socially inculcated victim mentality, should be abhorred by all
rational beings, and so my attitude towards the concept of
monatomic gold as a great social leveler and equalizer is
one of contempt.
However, you donít make lots of money by telling the bulk of
your readership that they are genetically excluded from a
process they cannot experience or understand; you sell New
Age drivel by telling the ingenuous that they can all assume
any role they like, and adopt any trendy "lifestyle" choice that
whim and deceitful advertising dictates.
As you know, I donít
write to make money, so I donít care who I offend with the
Can I pop a pill to turn me into a black African Masai
warrior? No. Is there a powder I can take to change me into
a woman? Of course not. I donít see the need for monatomic
gold myself. "Starfire" and the Seraphic
relationship worked perfectly well for me, and in any case
you are either genetically a Dragon or you are not, and
no amount of monatomic gold is going to change your
TT: What was the original meaning and purpose of
NDV: Vampire stems from the word "vber"
or "uber", and means "witch." It
originates in Anatolia; the location of the seven yearly Druidic
gatherings: the Nemetons. "Witch" in Gaelic
is "Druidhe", or "druid." In practical terms and
suggested by the term "uber" itself, a Scythian druid
was an overlord, and so originally a vampire was an overlord,
and hence a Dragon.
The purpose of vampirism depends on the type of vampirism
practiced. Starfire was the purpose of "royal" or
druidic vampirism in the ancient Scythian families, and in
Scythian "warrior" vampirism, drinking the blood of fallen
brothers in battle was intended to take their essence and
bravery into the recipient.
The blood of vanquished foes was
also drunk. In both cases this also had the advantage of topping
up oneís adrenaline and testosterone levels in the
heat of conflict. The folklore image of the vampire in Europe
stems from this historical root. Vampirism was an integral
part of Scythian/Dragon life.
TT: Is the Dragon bloodline a Satanic or
NDV: Yes is the honest and simple answer.
TT: If a person believes that they have the Dragon
gene, and they want to start developing the powers inherent
in their blood, what course would you suggest they follow?
NDV: Developing powers for their own sake isnít magic,
itís greed, and greed and ambition are the destroyers of
transcendent Dragon perception. Power flows naturally for
those whose vision is clear, and clear perception will determine
that those powers are used with detachment.
"Seek ye first the kingdom of God and all these things will be
added unto you."
The fact of the matter is that to Dragons, Dragon magic is simple and straightforward and
fundamentally it relies in discovering simplicity and stillness
within the self.
If the reader believes they are of the Dragon Blood
and they wish to explore the transcendent concept, in lieu of a
lengthy explanation for which there isnít space within the
confines of this interview, I would recommend a little book
entitled The First and Last Freedom, written by Jiddu
TT: What is the history of the Dragon Court of
which you are the Sovereign Head? Did you inherit this title,
and if so, who from?
NDV: The Imperial and Royal Dragon Court appears
repeatedly throughout the history of my family. It is the
physical, cultural manifestation of the Dragon spirit
inherent within the Vere Dragon blood, reaching
back long before the time of Christ.
Briefly, to give a few examples, in more recent times it was the
Royal Court of the Dragon Princess Milouziana from whom
we are descended in numerous lines, and later it was the
fairy Court of Alberic de Vere, the legendary Oberon.
Immediately following Alberic it was the Court of his
son, Robert de Vere, earl of Huntingdon, who was the
historical Robin Hood; the elven, sacral priest-king of the
witches. Later the Dragon Court was manifest in the
"Thirteen Covens of Mid-Lothian", and in the cabal of Lady
Somerville, the witch-mother of Thomas of Edinburgh.
Thomas was the grandson of Sir William Vere of Stonebyres
and the elvin, Dragon priest-king of the Thirteen Covens.
Sir William was the son of James, 7th Baron
Blackwood. Lady Jane Somervilleís heraldic family badge
is recorded as the fiery dragon surmounting the pentacle,
denoting Dragon blood in the House of the Somerville earls.
Notably in our family the Dragon Court is also
derived from the Court of the Pendragon Kings
whose lineage we inherit through numerous marital alliances with
our close cousins, the Dukes of Hamilton, whose estates
bordered our own in Lanarkshire. The Hamiltons were the heirs
presumptive to the throne of Scotland.
Lateral inheritance from the extinct cadet cousin branch of
the Vere earls of Oxford brings to the contemporary Court,
via the 11th earl, Richard de Vere, the degree
of Societas Draconis - latterly misnamed "Sarkany Rend"
- a membership bestowed upon him, it is believed academically,
during his investiture into the Princeís Degree of the
of the Garter, along with the Emperor Sigismund of
Luxembourg, at St. Georgeís Chapel, Windsor Castle.
heraldry of the family prior to Richardís investiture into Societas Draconis already included the ancient Dragon motifs
on both the paternal and maternal sides of the family,
denoting pure Dragon blood in both descents, and reflecting
the continuing presence of the Dragon Court in the family
since the time of Princess Milouziana of the Scythians.
The contemporary Dragon Court is furthermore a
combination of what Aleister Crowley would term several "currents",
of which the major external one to the family proper was
bestowed via the Black Country Covenant of the Baphometic
Order of the Cubic Stone, who trace their origins back to
the Knights Templars. This was given in
recognition of my familyís hereditary involvement in Royal
Witchcraft and the historical Dragon tradition.
Other external currents derive from the Knighthood of the
Plantagenet Clan Donnachaid, Dragon cousins to the House of
Vere, and laterally from Dr. John Deeís "School of
Night", of which Edward de Vere, the seventeenth earl
of Oxford, was a prominent member. Edward also performed the
rites of Dragon kingship in the family, specifically the rite of
the kingship of the Calle Daouine.
Down the centuries the Royal Dragon Court is carried
continuously in the Vere Dragon Blood.
It would be correct to say I inherited the Dragon Court
by virtue of being a senior blood descendant of the House
of Vere, and I am recognized as a Dragon sovereign by
the other senior members of the family.
Academic sources and
references pertaining to these Dragon descents are found within
The Dragon Legacy.
TT: How can one become a member of the Dragon Court, and
once a member, what does one do? What is the current function of
the Dragon Court? www.thedragonsociety.com
NDV: Today the Court consists of participating family
members here and in Ireland. In addition to these, we have
emeritus officers whose functions are invaluable to the running
of the Court.
One of the current, "outer" functions of the Dragon Court
is as the custodian of the Dragon tradition within the
Vere family, which includes the continuing study of the history
and genealogy of its various branches, and the amendment of
records as fresh knowledge comes to light.
Membership of the Dragon Court is given rarely. We
are not a joining club, nor do we operate for monetary
gain in any sense. As time passes, the Dragon Ethos
demands that the Dragon Court change and develop
according to expediency. In the future we may well expand the
membership of the Court to take in new Dragon members or to
expand the number of emeritus officers.
However, for those who are interested in joining, we have
created the Dragon Society (Societas Draconis),
an auxiliary group that is open to qualified applicants
and requires less commitment than full membership in the
Dragon Court. It is available for those who wish to
study the history of the Dragons and associate with other
learn more about it.
TT: Many people have ascribed to you a radical political
agenda, and say that you are trying to use your genealogy as a
springboard for a bid for the throne of England, and other such
nonsense. What is your response to these claims?
NDV: I cannot take such assertions seriously. The
educated reader will already know that the House of Vere
fielded over twenty prominent earls in an unbroken line over 561
years of British history. The House of Vere was credited
with being the senior bloodline of England, both by its
contemporaries and by later historians, and the Veres
acted for centuries as Great Chamberlains to the various
royal dynasties that came and went over time.
Chamberlains, they were the closest advisors to the monarchs
and were therefore the major influence or power behind the
British throne. In all this time the family never considered it
expedient to stoop to pick up the Crown, as the House of
Vere was above such considerations. It is apparent,
given the familyís pre-eminently powerful and influential
historical position within British society, that the English
monarchy was a trivia beneath the dignity and ambition of the
House. I see no reason to change that opinion today, so as you
say, the notion that I would demean myself by making a bid for
the throne is utter nonsense. We have standards to maintain in
In any event the monarchical system in Britain is, to the
greatest extent, impotent, and so if one wanted real political
power, the last place one would find it would be on the throne
of England. We have no need for thrones or crowns to remind us
of who we are.
TT: Are you a monarchist?
NDV: By definition Stalin was a "monarch", as were
all the presidents of the United States. By such a definition I
cannot be said to be a monarchist per sť. I am only a
royalist with the greatest of qualifications because not all who
contemporarily claim to be royal or those who have occupied the
positions of royalty in history have actually been of royal
TT: How do you feel about the current British monarchy?
NDV: I have no feelings about them one way or another.
They have a tendency to frighten the hell out of British
wildlife during the hunting season but in other respects they
seem harmless enough, so I see no real reason not to leave them
where they are. What would you replace them with anyway?
President Blair? What a scary thought.
TT: There are a lot of wild theories being bandied about
on the internet regarding the agenda of the Dragon Court.
"New World Order: The Movie" (http://www.geocities.com/newworldorder_themovie/dragoncourt.html)
regards the Dragon Court as part of an
involving Satanism and Nazism.
"Heeding Bible Prophecy" (http://www.angelfire.com/journal2/watch-unto-prayer/prophecy.html)
seems to proclaim nothing less than that the scion of the Devil
- the Anti-Christ himself - will emerge from the
ranks of the Dragon Court.
David Icke and Arizona
claim that your former co-author (and former Dragon Court
member), Laurence Gardner, shape-shifted into a
reptile and sacrificed babies in an underground
military base at Montauk, New York. How close
are these claims to the truth? What sinister activities are you
hiding, Mr. de Vere?
NDV: People think that the Anti-Christ will emerge
from the ranks of the Dragon Court? How intuitive of
them. My views on Nazism are well known. Nazism was a peasant
movement populated by the worst in German peasant scum. Its "Aryan"
philosophy and aspirations were a complete joke, and its
blind devotion to nationalistic jingoism was the height of
psychological blindness and wishful thinking. You canít make
genetic Aryans - a race of kings - out of a nation of
As for Satanism, if we mean adherence to Satan
as some externalized deity separate from the Dragon blood
and the object of religious devotion, such is an illogical
nonsense. Originally the Satans in Biblical
terms were nothing more than Circuit Prosecutors
within the Jewish Theocratic system. Who in their right mind
would worship lawyers? I wish people would study the facts. It
would save so much time and energy.
David Icke, dear, oh dear, oh dear. David once
announced on his website that Laurence Gardner and his
cronies performed blood-drinking rituals at his "Columba
Before uttering this ridiculous libel David
should have contacted the Post Office and checked as to where "Columba
House" was actually situated. If he had done so, the Post
Office would quite happily have told him that "Columba House"
was in fact a six inch by twelve inch Post Office Box at the
local Post Office Branch in Tiverton, Devon.
Exactly how many
shape-shifting reptilian vampires and their victims can you get
into a standard British Post Office Box?
Having all shape-shifted into reptilian vampires,
would then have us believe that they all shrunk to the size of
Minnie Mouse and got a postal worker to put them in the box. If
the reader thinks this is possible or even probable, and I am
sure that some who stay glued to the Internet all day will, then
it is also entirely possible that the reader will believe that
Laurence Gardner sacrificed babies at Montauk.
David Icke is concocting all this out of his cynical,
fiscally motivated imagination and flogging it to a willing
audience who, frighteningly enough, actually swallow it whole.
What sinister activities am I hiding? The internal activities of
the Court are confidential.
TT: What are your personal beliefs regarding God,
spirituality, and religion?
NDV: "Beliefs" regarding God and
spirituality create religions, and religions create
division and fear, within the individual and consequently
within society as a whole. Religion is a crutch for the power
hungry, the lazy, the weak minded and the unregenerate.
Religions happen when people donít get the point of the message
and blindly worship the message and the messenger, instead of
grasping the gnosis inherent within the words that the message
TT: Who do you think the Judeo-Christian god
Jehovah really was? Do you believe that there is any
historical basis behind the symbolic notion of Jehovahís
conflict with Satan?
NDV: The Jews got the main tenets of their religion from
the Babylonians during the exile. Therefore one can say
that although the later Jehovah is a composite,
his main attributes can be traced back to the god Enlil,
and it was Enlil who started a war with his step-brother
Enki concerning their individual number-ranking and
seniority of position within
the Anunnaki dynasty.
So in general terms we can say that the conflict between
Jehovah and Satan originated in a petty
TT: What is your opinion of Christ and his
NDV: A pretty good one.
TT: How do you feel about the Wiccan and New
NDV: Again my views of the Wiccan and New Age
movements are also well known. Wicca, the
so-called "Old Religion" is no more than sixty years old
and the New Age movement is nothing more than a baseless,
cynical marketing ploy geared towards extracting money from the
TT: How do you feel about the sudden surge of interest in
the "Grail bloodline" following the publication of
The Da Vinci Code? Do you think that the popularization
of the idea is dangerous?
NDV: Some people, the minority, will maintain their
interest and study the subject further, whilst the bulk of
readers will treat the book as a novel experience and pass on to
other subjects, once their curiosity has been satisfied. This
happens with every new publication.
The only inherent danger
would be to the subject itself, once the money-vampires of the
New Age get hold of it and try opening weekend workshops in "How
to become a member of the Grail Bloodline."
It would then
get promoted and marketed as a "lifestyle choice" open to all.
Once such familiarity has bred the inevitable public contempt,
the subject may well be rendered valueless to the new enquirer.
TT: What is the one most important thing you want people
to take away after reading The Dragon Legacy?
NDV: Firstly, one of the central themes of the
book is transcendent consciousness. I would like to feel that
the reader may derive some interest in this concept from reading
The Dragon Legacy and will pursue the subject further.
Secondly, the Dragon families have been with us for
millennia and, in the course of time, their innate and rightful
destiny will cause them to rise again.