Karmatoo: How do you think
your theory, as set out in your last book (The Purposeful
Universe - How Quantum Theory and Mayan Cosmology Explain the
Origin and Evolution of Life), is perceived by the scientific
Carl Johan Calleman: With a few exceptions it seems to be
ignored. I am using the same factual basis as modern science but
turns its interpretation upside down meaning that it is not very
easy to respond to for a Darwinist.
Hence, most scientists will
probably just avoid it rather than have to deal with their own
Darwinism is the main pillar of the materialist
philosophy that I mentioned above and there would be very few
rewards for anyone to start to question it. Yet, I know a few
scientists who have read and appreciated it.
It is after all a
beautiful theory where things really make sense in all kinds of
Karmatoo: Before speaking about the End of time, The Maya
Codex, in your opinion, is all about the origin of life. Like
the creationists, you challenge the validity of the Darwinist
Do you think, like Michael Cremo or Graham Hancock,
for example, that the story of who we were and where we come
from is pure fiction, a blatant scientific fraud or intellectual
Carl Johan Calleman: I have not read Cremo's book although I am
basically familiar with Hancock's work.
I do not think that
either one looks upon the Mayan calendar as a cosmic time plan
for the evolution of history. I also think that we have quite
some differences in attitude towards the academic world, notably
because I have worked inside of this.
My own attitude is to basically trust the facts of academic
science even if I interpret those facts in a very different way
than it does itself.
Although there are occasional frauds in the academic community I
find its facts vastly more reliable than independent researchers
in general if nothing else because any form of cheating is
punished very severely in academic science.
Independent researchers are more dependent on saying what people
want to hear and so I think people should be equally critical to
academic and independent researchers.
I know from my own
experience regarding various aspects of the Mayan calendar that
independent researchers can sometimes say all kinds of things
without any backing whatsoever and they will still enjoy the
support of broad groups of people because they say what people
want to hear.
A classical example is the so called
Alignment of December 21, 2012, which is never mentioned in any
Mayan source and yet has become spread among people broadly who
tend to think that this is a real phenomenon and that it has a
Mayan backing, neither of which is true.
The limitations in the scientific community is not in the facts
or in the dating of artifacts, but rather that its members are
forced to think within a certain framework and produce
interpretations that are philosophically materialist. This is
partly why people have lost interest in what scientists are
saying. We have come to a point in history where this
materialist paradigm does not resonate with people because it is
Yet, I do not think we should throw out the baby with the bath
water. We cannot ignore the massive body of factual knowledge
produced by scientists over a long time because of some very odd
In reality paradigm shifts are not about totally rejecting the
theories of past generations. It is about incorporating them in
a wider and more encompassing multidimensional framework and
this is what I am working towards.
Karmatoo: Well, you are probably right to refer to the
fragility of independent research.
But on the other hand, we
should not minimize the fact that laboratories are often funded
by influential interest groups and other powerful lobbies and
that may affect the result of their studies or their views
published in leading scientific journals.
To give but one
example, you are in a better position than I am to know that
large Tobacco companies, trough the Council for Tobacco
Research, have paid for a long time French labs and renowned
scientists to provide oriented studies favorable to their
But I get back to your fascinating theory on the Maya
calendar. You speak of a cosmic axis - that you indentify to the
Maya tree of life - which would regulate the universe and all
the forms of intelligent life it contains.
Do you believe that
matter is born of a thought? Do you think, like
Sheldrake, that living organism shapes are preceded by a kind of morphic or morphogenetic field?
Carl Johan Calleman: Yes, there are a number of different cases
where strong economical interests guide how facts are
What I am saying is that I trust the facts of the
scientific community more than those of alternative researchers,
because those are also dependent on economic interests, but of
another kind which is not equally visible.
I believe that the universe is created by an intelligence, which
is much more encompassing than our own. I think you may call the
shifting fields I describe as associated with the Mayan calendar
morphogenetic, but since this is a term that has been associated
with Sheldrake's view points it may be confusing since I think he
means a somewhat different thing by it.
If I understand Sheldrake's concept correctly he believes that if
there is enough of some physical phenomenon, for instance a
particular kind of crystal, then this physical phenomenon will
create a morphogenetic field that makes it easier for such
crystals to form in the future.
If this is a true understanding
of his concept, then his idea is more or less opposite to mine,
where the shifting metaphysical polarities determine what will
In my view matter does not create
Karmatoo: Ok, let us put Sheldrakes’s morphic fields aside.
However, in your last book, you stress the importance of «organismic halos» to be seen in conjunction with one of the
cell components known as centrioles that would be a key
combination to understand the evolution of species.
If it’s no
DNA, what exactly take control of
the centrioles who are
responsible for our physical appearance?
Carl Johan Calleman: It is the cosmic tree of life that
ultimately provides the template for the centrioles. Without the
prior existence of a perpendicular tree of life the centrioles
would not have come into existence a billion years ago.
Karmatoo: In your opinion, the Maya, or at least a select few,
had a very specific knowledge of the changing times and cycles
of evolution. This is reminding me of the
African Dogon tribe's
alleged knowledge of Sirius B prior of its discovery.
they get this knowledge?
Carl Johan Calleman: All peoples of the planet are influenced
by the shifting polarities of the global mind.
What I believe made the ancient Maya especially sensitive to
them and made them create a calendar to describe these shifting
energies of time I believe was primarily their geographical
The experience of sequential time for instance, which is crucial
for the development of the Mayan calendar is in the human brain
associated with the left brain half and so it is only logical
that such ideas manifest in the West among the Maya and the
Aztecs and the calendars of the Eastern Hemisphere is
considerably less advances.
It is also that in the projection of the Tree of Life on Earth
the equator place a significant role as a wave generator and so
the Maya who lived very close to the equator in the western
hemisphere quite naturally came to develop these metaphysical
calendars of the shifting energies.
Karmatoo: I might be wrong, but as I understand it, you were
close to Ian Xel Lungold, which may be referred as an
independent researcher. You have also made an interview with don
Alejandro, the well know Mayan elder.
Do you think that there is
a middle path that marries science, shamanism and New Age (such
as Drunvalo Melchizedek movement for example)?
Carl Johan Calleman:
The book I am presently writing deals extensively with shamanism
and altered states of consciousness.
You might say it gives a
scientific perspective on how such states can be induced. To
what extent it marries it with science is another matter. I
doubt that you can understand science from a shamanic point of
view but that is hardly its purpose either.
I believe the truth
is higher than either shamanism or science in the present form
can provide, and yet it is very tangible.
I think it is important that people that want to know how
contemporary Mayan shamans look at the world should contact them
and be with them and learn from them. If on the other hand they
want to know how the world has evolved according to the ancient
Mayan calendar system they are much better off if they study my
Reality is multidimensional, but even so there is a truth
and those that listen to newagers that have not studied the
ancient Mayan calendar system may easily be lead astray.
Karmatoo: According to Dr. Michael Newton hypnotic regression
studies regarding life between life, the process of life
creation (stars, planets, living organisms, …) is a collective
creation led by highly evolved souls but also, in a certain way,
by all sentient beings throughout the universe.
The claim that
the “gods” and the “goddess” of the Maya calendar, which govern
the underworlds and the heavens, are metaphors representing more
abstract evolutionary organic processes is it not a typical
Western distortion of Maya thought?
Carl Johan Calleman: There are so many instances where my own
predictions have been verified that I do not think I am
distorting ancient Mayan thought.
The distinction between
contemporary and ancient Mayan thought is very important.
The ancient Maya lived in another state of consciousness than
people do today, including the contemporary Maya, and for this
reason their calendar system has not been systematically used
for a thousand years.
But I repeat if people want to have
shamanic experiences they should contact Mayan elders for is.
Karmatoo: How do you feel about the recent archaeological
discovery in Guatemala on which William Saturno bases its
arguments to say that the Maya Calendar does not end in 2012 but
more probably goes on until 3.500 A.D.?
Does it not question end
of time theories and the emergence of a new paradigm in 2012
based on the Maya calendar?
Carl Johan Calleman: Well, this is not really news. It has been
known for a long time that there are dates in Palenque thousands
of years into the future.
I do feel however that a reassessment of the view of an end to
the thirteen baktuns need to be reassessed.
I feel now after the
end of the thirteen baktuns came to an end on October 28, 2011
that the idea of an end to the calendar is simplistic and the
reality is more complicated. It seems the waves of the Mayan
calendar have come to an end in the sense that the Tortuguero
monument specifies, nine levels would synchronize on the above
date and yet they continue.
I was not able to foresee this development. It seems also that
everyone else that has contributed to have a name in this field
also have had a simplistic view expecting an end to the
This is true for academic Mayanists such as Michael
Coe and David Stuart, but it is also true for Don Alejandro, who
has talked about the year zero, Arguelles who saw himself as the
"closer of the cycle" and Jenkins who wrote a book about the
Mayan calendar end date. So despite our differences we have all
shared a notion that has been only partially true. It is very
paradoxical and I will need to write a book about it.
not be true to say that the Long Count has come to an end but it
was not be true to deny it either.
Karmatoo: According to
the Drake equation modified by Jay
Richards, which is used to estimate the number of detectable
extraterrestrial civilizations in the Milky Way galaxy, the
probability of finding a planet that hosts such a civilization
is virtually nil.
If, as you state, the finality of the universe
is to create intelligent life forms, how do you explain this
Carl Johan Calleman: Even if
planets with life in the universe
is a rare phenomenon the universe was created with the purpose
of generating this rare phenomenon in my view.
application of the Drake equation is based on a number of
assumptions that sometimes in turn are based on the idea that
the creation of the condition for life is a random phenomenon.
do not think the existence of life on other planets can be
approached as such a random phenomenon.
Karmatoo: When viewed horizontally, the Maya bas-relief
King Pacal returning after his death to the Three of Life may
also be interpreted as a men driving a sophisticated engine.
Could some major transitions in biological evolution illustrated
by the Maya calendar be also explained by alien genetic
as claimed by Nigel Kerner?
Carl Johan Calleman: Personally I doubt that any aliens from a
different planet ever visited our planet. I suspect that many
reports of such encounters are meetings in another state of
I cannot speak for all of them but it seems quite clear from
Rick Strassman's work with dimethyltryptamine that people that
was given this psychedelic had experiences almost identical with
alien abductees and yet Strassman was sitting at their bed sides
when they were in this altered state all the time meaning that
they were not taken up to a space craft in the physical reality.
I think it is because of such experiences some have had in
altered states whether intentionally induced or not that people
are creating such theories of genetic manipulation that have
nothing to support them form a biological standpoint.
Karmatoo: It is well known that it is possible to experiment
scenarios of alien interaction under the influence of
hallucinogenic substances as has been demonstrated by Terance
McKenna and John Lilly.
However, I don’t think that we can
reduce the UFO phenomenon to the Strassman’s DMT researches,
which, by the way, are very interesting.
happen only in bed. I’m thinking, for example, of Foster’s who
have reportedly been abducted while driving (The Black Triangle
Abduction - Bill and Peggy Foster).
It would mean forgetting the
thousands of reports coming from pilots, policemen, military
officers and astronauts who have described how they witnessed
unidentified flying objects defying the laws of physics.
told me that your next book «will also deal with things such as
aliens, psychedelics and shamanism in the context of the Mayan
calendar», could you expand on that, because I fail to see the
link between the Mayas and Strassman?
Carl Johan Calleman: My next book makes all the connections
between things that people cannot now see I would say.
No, I cannot know that all the purported of
sightings of UFO are
only altered states, but then again such sightings do not
include any extraterrestrial beings and so who knows what they
Who says they are from other star systems just because we
do not know what they are. Sightings of UFO's are decidedly also
much part of psychedelics meaning that I am inclined to think
that they are also part of the consciousness phenomenon.
not know that. What I do know is that some abductions are
altered states of mind and I suspect all of them are.
Karmatoo: According to you and
Barbara Hand Clow, the Maya
calendar represents different stages of historic evolution
following one another at an increasing rate until 2011/2012.
there an analogy between this global phenomenon and the
individual perception that times seem to go faster as we get
older? Ultimately, what does this mean? Death? The end of life
as we know it?
Carl Johan Calleman: Both Ian and Barbara
have been promoting my work with my blessing.
They have done so
with small modifications, but it is a misunderstanding if people
think that they are the sources of any significant aspects of my
The acceleration of time is now essentially over as of October
28, 2011 and it will not accelerate further. I do not think it
is really related to a similar thing as getting older.
I am now
dealing with the continuation of the Mayan calendar and it seems
to me that it is much more complicated, than I or anyone else
had thought only a year ago, but there is no reason to think
that it means the end of life as we know it unless we take a